Exclusive Interview With Jenn Simmons - Breaking Free From The Medical Machine: A Surgeon's Journey to Truth

Two medical doctors pull back the curtain on the disturbing truth about our healthcare system in this groundbreaking conversation. Dr. Jenn Simmons, formerly the first fellowship-trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia, and her host share their parallel journeys from conventional medicine to a complete paradigm shift in healing.

After years of surgical training and practice, both doctors independently discovered that much of what they'd been taught was fundamentally flawed. "Most of what I learned was wrong," Dr. Simmons reveals, explaining how her own health crisis forced her to question everything. This awakening led her to functional medicine and a revolutionary approach to breast cancer care that addresses root causes rather than just symptoms.

The conversation exposes how hospitals and doctors profit from keeping patients sick rather than truly healing them. "The only way doctors get paid, the only way hospitals get paid, is if you're sick," they explain, detailing how the system uses fear to trap patients in cycles of harmful treatments. They discuss the alarming rates of overdiagnosis in breast cancer—up to 180,000 women annually receiving unnecessary treatments—and how standard screening practices like mammography may cause more harm than good.

Particularly powerful is their examination of how medical language itself becomes a weapon. The word "cancer" creates such fear that rational decision-making becomes impossible, pushing patients into treatments that often decrease both quality and quantity of life. Instead, they advocate for understanding tumors as messages from the body that something needs to change, not enemies to be eradicated.

Listen as these pioneering physicians share stories of patients who defied terminal diagnoses by taking control of their healing journey, and discover why these success st

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Chapters

• 0:00 Dr. Lodi Intro (Meeting Dr. Jen Simmons)
• 5:32 A Life Changing Journey from Conventional to Integrative
• 19:16 The Poison Apple Tree
• 24:17 Radiation & The Impact on Survival
• 27:55 Over Diagnosing Breast CFC’s
• 34:26 The Deathly Curse of Diagnosis
• 41:21 Dr. Jenn Simmons Screening Paradigm
• 45:01 “Mammograms Save Lives”
• 52:48 Radical Remission & Radical Hope
• 1:01:36 Changing the Way We Use Language
• 1:08:27 Its Never One Mammogram
• 1:16:35 Jenn Simmons 10 Week Course (Health is a journey)
• 1:25:06 The Truth About Kaqun Water
• 1:27:40 Restoring Health Before It’s Too Late
• 1:34:25 Breast Health is Health
• 1:36:46 Jenn Simmons Health Centers (Perfection Imaging)
• 1:39:09 Dr. Lodi Outro

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:52

ah, okay, there, we are all right. Well, um, I am, I am, um, it's rare that I actually feel like I'm sitting with, uh, uh, someone that might see the world like I do, and anyway. So this is Dr Jen Simmons, and you know, I left America in 2012. And so I and I was focused over here, so I didn't really know what was happening. I didn't even know about you until about a year and a half ago, or two years ago. I didn't know, I think.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Chris Work introduced us right. Yeah, yeah, that was it years ago.

Speaker 1: 1:33

I didn't know, I think Chris work introduced us right, yeah, yeah, that was it.

Speaker 2: 1:41

Yeah, but we, we are definitely soulmates, though, for sure, somehow somehow, we got the same download from the universe. Right, we did. And, um, I think that people's souls kind of recycle. And we, we definitely were. We were studying in the same place at some time in history, for sure, because what we have imprinted in our brains is like identical.

Speaker 1: 2:05

It is, it is. And the strange thing is is that once you see it, like we do, you can't not see it. And then you, and then I see other people don't see it, and I'm like I get really confused. But anyway, I'm, I'm really happy to have you here and um, um, I, uh, uh, you know, I mean just, you know if I who doesn't know you, but you know, the fact is that is that you're, you're a medical doctor and uh, like I am.

Speaker 1: 2:32

So you went through the whole and, by the way, I think MD stands for mythology doctor, but um, cause I think we really know them with all the myths that called diseases. But anyway, it's a very specific type of training and it's it's supposed to set your head, uh, your, your perspective, uh, uh, and and and your paradigm and how you're going to work with people. It does all that. And then you went through all the training of you know, people who haven't been through medicine have to understand that after medical school then it begins, you know. Then you do residency and fellowships and you know, and so Dr Dan Simmons was, I guess, the first fellowship-trained surgeon. Was it breast surgeon or thoracic surgeon? Yep.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Yep, the first fellowship-trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia.

Speaker 1: 3:21

So not the first trained woman. No no no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 3:27

I think before I was trained, for a couple of years there might have been a fellowship at MD Anderson and at Memorial Sloan Kettering, but I was very, very early on in that process. My breast disease fellowship it was actually a cooperative fellowship between the top hospitals in Philadelphia because no one had one. So we were kind of making it up as we went along and there wasn't an accreditation process yet and we were talking to all of the other fellowship programs to say let's build this, let's formalize it, what should we include? What do you think is necessary? How much time should we spend in the pathology lab? How much time should we spend in the imaging center? How much time should we spend in the OR?

Speaker 2: 4:23

Because you know, for most of us, if you're coming into a breast surgery fellowship, then you're already a general surgeon. I mean, you already have five years of surgical experience. How much more surgical experience do you really need? Or do you really need that at all? Or do you just do reconstructive surgery? And so putting all of these pieces into place and I don't want to say making it up as you go along, but asking for what you need to become educated, and so that's kind of what happened to me is that I had this amazing experience where I learned from the best people in Philadelphia at all the different institutions. So I was doing my pathology in one place and my radiation oncology in another place, and my medical oncology in another place, and my reconstructive surgery in another place and my radiology in another place, and I really got a tremendous education which 20 years later I completely abandoned because most of what I learned was wrong. You know, I am so glad you brought that up, because most of what I learned was wrong.

Speaker 1: 5:33

You know. I am so glad you brought that up because that's what I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you this so you know, integrative oncology is. As I remember, when I was first doing this in the early 2000s, there was that that term didn't exist and you know, and all and so, and there was only a few of us and, um, and now I see that so many people are in the field and they're really not qualified, because to be I mean to be an integrative oncologist, you have to know both, both sides, or and it's not I mean all sides, because there's a lot on the indigenous uh, indigenous traditional side versus the conventional. But you've got to know the conventional to know when and not when and when not to use it. So that's why I was, you know.

Speaker 1: 6:21

So you and I had similar journeys in that. But I wanted to ask you when you, whatever you went through that made you realize that? I mean, were you changed? Were you all that? You've studied for years, you trained and now I'm going to leave it Did it? Did it? Do you know what it was? Was there some moment?

Speaker 2: 6:41

like you said, I'm out of here, yeah, little bit, and share a little bit of my personal journey, because had I not been a patient, I would have never had this perspective. Enlightenment, you can call it whatever you want to call it, but I come to the breast cancer world very naturally and organically. I come from a breast cancer family and nearly every woman in my family had breast cancer. And growing up I had a first cousin. Her name was Linda Creed. She was a singer-songwriter in the 1970s and 1980s. She wrote all the music for the Spinners and the Stylistics. She was beautiful, brilliant, larger than life, walked into a room and lit the place up. The queen of Motown sound in Philadelphia. So she wrote 54 hits in all.

Speaker 2: 7:37

And her most famous song was the Greatest Love of All, really, yes. So she wrote that song in 1977 as the title track to the movie the Greatest starring Muhammad Ali. But it really received its acclaim in March of 1986, when Whitney Houston would release that song to the world and at that time it would spend 14 weeks at the top of the charts. Only my cousin, linda, would never know, because Linda died of metastatic breast cancer just one month after Whitney released that song.

Speaker 2: 8:10

I was 16 years old and my hero died and her life and ultimately her death, gave birth to my life's purpose and I did the only thing I knew how to do because I never wanted another woman, another family, another community to have to suffer the way that mine suffered. So I became a doctor, the first doctor in my family. I became a surgeon. I became the first fellowship trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia and the first oncoplastic surgeon in Pennsylvania, and I did this really well for a really long time, long enough for my aunt to be diagnosed, long enough for my mother to be diagnosed, and at what was arguably the height of my career, where I am running the surgical department, where I am running the cancer program, where I'm a wife and a mother and a stepmother and an athlete and a philanthropist and an author and all of these things, and over the course of three days I went from being one of the most high-functioning people you've ever met to I couldn't walk across the room because I didn't have the breath in my body.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 9:28

And I have this intense workup and at the end I'm sitting in the office of my friend and colleague and physician and he tells me that I need surgery and chemo radiation and I'm going to be on lifelong medication. And despite the fact that I knew what he was recommending was standard of care, despite the fact that I'm running a cancer program and these are things that I said all day, every day to people without hesitation or reservation, when these words are coming at you, I assure you it's different. And what I couldn't silence was the voice in my head telling me there's something more, go find it Now. I was a very conventional physician. I was not looking for the something else. I wasn't looking outside of the blinders that they put on us in medical school, and you and I both know that thinking outside of the box in medical school, in residency or in practice is not rewarded.

Speaker 1: 10:51

The opposite.

Speaker 2: 10:51

Many times you come up against disciplinary action for doing that. You're called a quack, you're stripped of your credibility, sometimes you're even stripped of your license for not checking the boxes, for not falling in line, for not diagnosing and prescribing along their paradigm. So I, up until this point, had no reason to believe or know that there was anything else. I mean, I went to a very conventional MD school. I didn't even know, I had never heard of a naturopath. I mean, I didn't even know what else existed, I didn't know what the choices were. So I kind of go on this journey and I'm a little blind because I don't know from anything, right. And so I decide that I need to learn certainly more about food, nutrition, nourishment, because we get almost none of that in the scope of our medical training. And so here I am sitting in a lecture hall and this tall, lanky guy walks on the stage, big, toothy grin, and he introduces himself as a functional medicine physician. And I'm still cynical, right. So I said to myself I'm a doctor for 20 years. There's no such thing as a functional medicine physician. What is this quack talking about? And then I remember that I'm sick and I'm there for a reason, and so I check my ego at the door and I tune in and thank God I did, because, as it turns out, this quack is Mark Hyman. And what Dr Hyman is going to say to me over the next two hours is not only going to telescope how I was going to restore my own health, but it was also going to dictate how I was going to provide medicine and healing in the future. And so I am a quick start. I get really excited about things. I'm an early adopter.

Speaker 2: 13:08

That day I enrolled in the Institute for Functional Medicine and I spent the next three years healing myself and absorbed in the study of functional medicine, and at the end I have my certification. I'm still practicing as a surgeon. So one day I have this 19-year-old come into my office. She's there because she has a breast lump and she's wheeled into my office because her MS. She has primary progressive MS, which is the more aggressive form. Her MS is so bad that she can't walk the 30 feet from the elevator to my office, so she's wheeled in by her mother. Now I had recently met Terry Walls. Do you know Terry?

Speaker 1: 14:04

No, I know the name.

Speaker 2: 14:06

So she is a Midwestern physician who Sorry, I do not know she was practicing, I think her specialty is internal medicine. She was the residency program director and her MS was so progressive that within two years she could no longer sustain her own body weight and she was in a zero gravity wheelchair and the hospital let her go because she couldn't fulfill her responsibilities as a doctor, as an educator, as anything, and so she at that time decided that she needed to materially change her diet and see what would happen. And she did, and she got better. And in the next 10 months she actually went from not being able to hold up her own weight to she's riding her bicycle 20 miles every day, to she's riding her bicycle 20 miles every day. And so she wrote this protocol and the hospital brought her back and said you know, we need to teach people to do this. And she has since taught thousands and thousands and thousands of people to do this, and, while I don't agree with everything that she does, it worked for her.

Speaker 2: 15:33

So, in any event, I'm very excited and giddy as a school child because I think like, oh my God, god put this woman in my office for a reason. I'm going to be able to help her with her MS. I'm going to be able to help her change her life. So I'm telling her all about Terry Walls and the story and the book. And I get about a minute and a half in and she puts her hand up in my face and she says are you going to do my biopsy or not?

Speaker 2: 16:04

And it was in that moment that I was like, oh yeah, not everyone wants to help themselves. Some people just want the pill or the procedure or the knife or whatever. Some people don't want to take responsibility for their health. They don't want to be in charge of that. They don't think it's their job. Right, it's the system's job to get them better, to help them, to heal them, to cure them, whatever you want to call it. And so I decided on that day that I didn't want to work with people who didn't want to help themselves and I quit.

Speaker 1: 16:43

Wow, that's beautiful. That's beautiful and that was it.

Speaker 2: 16:48

And I also realized along the way that, by cutting a tumor out first of all, what I learned on that day with Mark Hyman is that, especially in the world of cancer, we're completely focused on the wrong thing. Right, we're focused on the tumor, but the tumor is not the problem. The tumor is the symptom of the problem, and everyone likes to believe that the tumor is some like foreign invader. The tumor is you. It's the part of you that's saying this isn't working for me and we need something to drastically change. And so, if all you do is cut out the tumor, what is stopping the tumor from coming back? What is stopping the next iteration of illness or disease? Right, you have to change the trajectory, and I could never do that as a surgeon.

Speaker 2: 17:42

First of all, as a surgeon, who's paying me to talk to these people? Because so much of this, as you know, is diet and lifestyle and mindset, right. And so the hospital's not paying me to talk to people about how to improve these things, how to change their life, how to restore health, and actually, as you very well know, that is not in the interest of the hospital. The only way doctors get paid, the only way hospitals get paid, is if you're sick. If you're not sick, they can't help you, and so the entire system is designed so that you're sick. It's designed to get you in the door. From beginning to end it's designed to get you in the door, and it starts with pushing women to give their babies formula within 24 hours. Right, it's this crazy notion. Oh, you're not making enough milk yet. Well, I'm making exactly what God meant me to make in this period of time.

Speaker 1: 19:16

You know, they actually start just before that. I don't know when it happened, but somehow pregnancy became a disease and so you have to go to the hospital to have your baby, and so the baby starts their life in a hospital. They get smacked hey, welcome to planet Earth. And then they start doing all this stuff. They'll have well baby checks, and then at the end you die, getting swallowed up by machines in the ICU. So it's a whole. It's a whole thing, you're right. So we.

Speaker 2: 19:47

It's a life cycle. It's a life cycle.

Speaker 1: 19:49

Yeah, and that's why we get insurance, see, and I don't want insurance because insurance is a ticket into there. I a ticket into the house of whores, I agree with you a thousand percent.

Speaker 2: 20:04

This is the insurance mentality right, and people say to me all the time like, why don't you take insurance? Well, why would I participate in a system that just wants you to be sick, right. And then, once you are sick, it doesn't behoove them to keep you alive longer because they have to pay for more. So once you are sick, they want to be done with you. Yep, yep.

Speaker 1: 20:29

So why would I?

Speaker 2: 20:29

participate in that system.

Speaker 1: 20:31

You know insurance companies have an actuarial. You know, like life insurance, you know they kind of know, they know if you're diagnosed with what, any specific condition at this age, how much money you're going to spend before you're dead. It's kind of like, and that, and that's what you've got to fit into. So could people say, well, why don't they cover what you do? Because actually it's a lot cheaper. That's not the point. That's not the point. They want that money because actually at the top, same people own all of it. So it doesn't matter. You know it doesn't really matter. You know, because the money you just need to churn this money and yes, and there's no bit, there's no business in the world that dedicates any amount of energy and time to decrease the number of clients they have. So we're not going to do that.

Speaker 1: 21:17

Right, you're right in medicine. You know the world of medicine and you know the metaphor I've come up with, or what came to me actually, because I've realized that I don't originate my thoughts. They actually are given to me, and that is the poison apple tree. Everybody that eats an apple from this tree dies. So you call the tree doctor, they come in, they cut off all the apples. Did we solve the problem? No, next, what is it? Winter fall, we're going to have a new crop.

Speaker 1: 21:49

So it wasn't the apple, right? So unless the apple is, you know, what we do is integrative, right? So do we never do surgery? No, of course we do. Do we never do surgery? No, of course we do. Do we never do radiation? Yeah, but when you have to know when to do it, and so there are times you know you've got your bowels about to be obstructed, there's no choice, you got to do it.

Speaker 2: 22:09

That's exactly right.

Speaker 2: 22:11

There's a time and a place, without question, without question, and I think what is completely lacking in that conventional medical world, which I pray exists universally in the integrative medicine world although I think that there's a range in that term but that I like to think that we see the individual in front of us and each time I don't have a reproducible plan, right, I can't, I don't have a program that I can offer to everyone, because everyone who is sitting in front of me is different, and that's why, you know, people ask me all the time how did you heal? How I heal doesn't matter, right, because what got me sick is different than what got you sick and what I needed is different than what you need. But what I want to make sure is that if you're going to do those things, like if you're going to have surgery, if you're going to have radiation, there ought to be a real reason why, and the benefits have to far outweigh the risks.

Speaker 1: 23:28

But you won't know that unless you ask. And I've noticed that people don't ask, like I've had all the time people in front of me saying, well, listen, do you have any data, is there any proof about what you do? And I always say I'll tell you in a minute. I have tons of data. But let me ask you a question. Did you ask the doctor at MD Anderson the same question? No, why? Because they're sitting in there but you're asking me and I'm glad to show you. But I mean, you got to start asking them because people come to me and they didn't ask. You know they, we got to cut this out, we got to do this, we got to do this. And they just say, okay, um, so, and so you got to ask that question. Do the risks? Uh, what, what you know?

Speaker 2: 24:27

you got to look at the risks and benefits. And you do that. If you're going to buy a new car, you're going to buy a newpectomy, then you're going to have radiation afterwards right, deal that the surgeons make with the patients. And so they come to me after they've had surgery wondering if they need radiation and you know, or if they should have radiation. And I said, well, what did the radiation doctor tell you? What are the benefits? And they don't say that, right, and it's because they don't exist. So I say to them, when you go to the radiation oncologist, you have to say I want to know what are the benefits of me doing this? Is it going to save my life? Is it going to increase the chances that I survive? Because at the bottom line is all about survival, right, and if it's not impacting survival, we have to think long and hard about why we're doing it. And the data is pouring out now that we know that radiation elective radiation does not increase survival.

Speaker 1: 25:44

It doesn't.

Speaker 2: 25:45

And so what are we doing? What are we doing? And? We keep doing it and we keep doing it and these phone calls that I'm getting and these consults that I'm getting are getting more and more frequent and it's because the information is getting out there and the radiation oncologists are having to fight harder to find people to treat, because people are learning that there is no real benefit to doing it.

Speaker 1: 26:15

No, in fact there's the opposite. I mean that that, of course I mean what I, you know. In fact there's the opposite. I mean that that, of course, I mean what I, you know, you know, I just have this, uh, I've just come to the conclusion not never radiate soft tissue for any reason ever. You know, if you've got a glial, you've got a brain tumor that's growing quickly, you got, you know, you got to do that. If you've got something, uh, a tumor on your spine, and you know there are situations where you've got to do it, but not soft tissue.

Speaker 1: 26:44

I had a woman in my office I had never done it before but a cardiac window, I was doing an EKG because she didn't do well, she had cardiac tamponade. That's when the fluid around the heart becomes so much do you call it strength or power than the heart beating and so it kind of stops the heart and they, and that that's a extreme emergency. Um, and that happened from radiation. She had a pleural effusion, she had, you know, fluid on her from the radiation and went. And you know I it's interesting, jama remember jama came out. What was it in? In 2000, whatever, two or something, that the medical profession was a third leading cause of death and I think if we really looked at it, it'd be the first the leading cause, because when we say this person died from this cancer, no, they probably died from the chemo and the radiation and they didn't die from it.

Speaker 2: 27:41

Well, you know, that is a real problem, in that what the deaths get attributed to is incorrect.

Speaker 1: 27:51

Incorrect.

Speaker 2: 27:53

And horribly, horribly misleading. And what we all need to know is that if you are treated for breast cancer, you are two to three times more likely to die of heart disease than someone who is not treated for breast cancer, and it's because the treatments for breast cancer accelerate cardiovascular disease and cardiomyopathy right. So we are actually, in treating people for breast cancer, decreasing both the quality and the quantity of their life a lot of the time. This is a problem, especially when I mean, I don't know what the well, I shouldn't say this.

Speaker 2: 28:46

The studies, the large scale studies that have been done on breast cancer screening, estimate that we are over-diagnosing breast cancer 20 to 30% of the time. So I only know the US numbers. And in 2024, we will have diagnosed 300,000 women with invasive cancer. To be clear, I am not talking about DCIS, I am not talking about DCIS. So a lot of people they're like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, simmons is talking about DCIS in terms of overdiagnosis. I'm not of overdiagnosis, I'm not. I'm talking about invasive cancer. And we diagnosed 300,000 women in 2024 with invasive cancer, 20 to 30% of which are overdiagnosed. We are talking about 60 to 90,000 women treated for breast cancer unnecessarily, unnecessarily.

Speaker 1: 29:43

You're not talking about DCIS, because that's going to give you another I'm not.

Speaker 2: 29:46

I'm not talking about DCIS. Dcis is another 90,000.

Speaker 1: 29:50

Yeah, so-.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Right. So now we're talking about close to 180,000 women treated unnecessarily because the women who have DCIS are getting the same treatment. The women who have DCIS are getting surgery, they're getting radiation, they're being put on aromatase inhibitors or tamoxifen. They're getting treated as if they have breast cancer. And I had this call with a woman yesterday God bless her. I mean, she's in tears and I said to her I need you to hear this you do not have breast cancer. And she's like well, why is everyone calling it breast cancer? Because they want you to believe that. That's what they want you to believe, because it suits them leave because it suits them.

Speaker 1: 30:46

You know, and, and this, this is exact, this is I, I really, I, I'm, I think I'm gonna my within five years, I will. My practice will be completely psycholinguistics, uh, because linguistic manipulation and and the power of the word. In fact I'm, I'm writing a book right now which is going into that, but, uh, the power of the word, it's so. I'm writing a book right now which is going into that, but the power of the word, it's so powerful. And that's why I don't even like the word diagnosis.

Speaker 1: 31:06

If someone says I got a lump, I got to know what it is. No, you don't. Don't put a name on it. Leave it a lump, make it that there's something not balanced and your body's trying to adapt to it and just, you're going to restore that balance. Just look at it like that. Don't put a name. Many put a name. It exists. So if you don't name it, it doesn't exist. And that's if you got to think about that for a while. A child looking at a desk won't see all the details, won't see the magnifying glass, won't see all that, because it doesn't have names for it, it's just a blur names. So the word gives it existence and the diagnosis is a name, and you know that when these. What is this diagnosis? It's a histological description. So what Does it tell you? How you got it and how you're going to get rid of it? No, so what's the value? There's no value. The value is that you have the proper nomenclature to go into the sales algorithm and that's it.

Speaker 2: 31:58

That's exactly it. I mean, this is like one of the main reasons why I wrote this book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, so that people could make an educated decision, so that they could take that piece of paper and understand what it really means. Right? Because what happens is these words are so charged and these women are so scared and they're put on that treadmill going six miles an hour, right, and they're just running in the direction that that they want them to go Right, so they're signing them up for surgery before they can even think. So they're signing them up for surgery before they can even think right, or they're signing them up to get treatment and you know what that stress response is like. I mean the second you flip that switch and all that cortisol is surging through your body. Your brain can't think anymore, you can't think at all. And yet you're going to make this decision that's going to affect you for the rest of your life. And some of these decisions are so major that they talk women into getting chemotherapy. They talk women into doing these aromatase inhibitors and these have significant, profound, detrimental effects on people for the rest of their life. And this is really what I talk about the most now is.

Speaker 2: 33:28

I call her the forgotten woman because all these women treated for breast cancer. They're told that they should be grateful to be alive. And don't get me wrong, they are grateful. But it's hard to feel grateful when you can't think, you can't sleep, you're anxious, you're scared, you can't remember your words, you've gained weight, you look deformed, you've lost your sensuality, your joints ache, your bones ache, your skin is dry, your hair is dry, you have no libido, sex is unwanted and painful, you're leaking urine, your relationship is suffering. It's hard to feel grateful, but this is how we leave people and then we forget them. We forget them. We say just feel grateful to be alive and it's not life.

Speaker 1: 34:23

No, it's not Exactly. Exactly. Do you find that? See, a couple of times you've mentioned it, like that woman that was just recently who you were saying you don't have, it's almost impossible to get her not to know that.

Speaker 2: 34:47

It's hard.

Speaker 1: 34:48

Once it's said, it's like a screw worm that goes into your heart. How do?

Speaker 2: 34:52

you get it out.

Speaker 2: 34:53

I know it's like unringing a bell, right, you can't get it out. But the thing is, I mean I really encourage people to adopt it as a mantra, right, Like I'm healthy and well, I don't have cancer. I'm healthy and well, I don't have cancer. I don't even like them using cancer in their verbiage, and I think you and I have talked about this before. I hate all of the verbiage around cancer. You got to fight it. That's the last thing you want to do. You don't want to fight. Your body's fighting hard enough. Life is hard enough as it is. We need so much more love. We need so much more kindness. We don't want to be at war with anything. Right, it's war that got you there in the first place. It's fighting that got you there in the first place. So I think the way that we language is so important in all of this and the story we tell ourselves. But I agree it's very hard to unring that bell.

Speaker 1: 36:06

Right, which is why you don't want a diagnosis, because it doesn't change anything, it doesn't help in any way and it's not true anyway. So, for example, invasive ductal carcinoma. If you look at what they're saying, it's in the duct, it went through the wall and it's a carcinoma because it comes from a certain part of the embryonic germ layer. All right, yeah, ok, and what else? Well, that's it, that's the diagnosis. That's the diagnosis. Well, how did I get it and how do I get rid of it? Well, anyway, so it doesn't tell you those two things. And if it doesn't, it's, you could have called it a banana, it doesn't matter what you call it. So that's what. But the problem is, they call it the standard of care and I call it the standard of scare. They scare you to death, and so I, you know.

Speaker 1: 36:56

So I tell people that if you got to go in the hospital, do this, don't listen, don't listen. And I said, even me, if I had a problem, as much as I know, I wouldn't. I don't want to. If I hear it, I can't get it out, I can't get it out. So I don't want to even hear it, and that's why I, you know the worst thing you can do for yourself.

Speaker 1: 37:18

And you know, what you were talking about a moment ago is that when you no longer can think, it's actually they call it amygdala hijacking. And so our fear is in our amygdala, which is a little part of our brain, and then our reasoning is our prefrontal cortex. What happens is the amygdala, if it gets fired up so much, hijacks the ability of the neural pathways to go to the prefrontal cortex, so you can't make critical decisions anymore. You're stuck in fear. So the amygdala hijacks. This is physiologically, the ability to make decisions. This is a real, real thing and that's why I call it the standard of scare, and it absolutely is. And when you say to someone you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1: 38:01

That means you're going to die, because cancer is now synonymous with death. That's what it is.

Speaker 2: 38:06

I know.

Speaker 1: 38:06

I know You're absolutely right.

Speaker 2: 38:09

It's interesting because people ask me about my story all the time and I always leave that word out and I never say that word because I don't really think it applies to me Right. So you know, if people ask me what I had, I just say I had thyroid, right, and I don't ever use that language because I no longer believe in it. There's an amazing book called Overdiagnosed by. I think his name is Jillian Welch. Do you know that book? Um and the? The truth is that if you look for these cellular changes, what we describe under a microscope, right, if you look for them, you're gonna find them, because this is part of normal physiology and we all have these at all ages and all times. We all have these. So if you look, you're going to find these things. And we are looking too hard for these diseases because it's for the purposes of feeding the medical machine, right. And so I have completely changed the way that I feel about screening and the way that I go about screening.

Speaker 1: 39:38

I wanted to ask you can you tell me, because you're perfect, perfection, yeah, I'd like to understand what that is. Yeah, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2: 39:49

But what it isn't is in a silo by itself. So I think that screening is for healthy women, healthy people in general, right, this is for people who have no reason to believe that they have disease. And, as far as breast cancer screening goes, I think that everyone should be examining themselves, because I think no one is ever going to know you better than you know yourself, and you're going to know when something changes. And it's only relevant if you notice a change, because chasing all of these things you know everyone talks about, oh well, that's why survival increases, because we find things so early. You're finding things that would have never, ever, ever been anything right. And then you're calling yourself a hero for having found someone's five millimeter, something that would have never been anything. And now this woman had to go through breast cancer treatment and has to wear and has to deal with that burden for the rest of her life because you can't unflip her switch, right. So who do we help? It is so amazing to me how hoodwinked these people are. Like a mammogram saved my life, really, really, it just it blows me away. We need to go there, but I'll just, I'll just finish by saying that my screening paradigm is. I use self-press examination because I think it's the only thing that is meaningful in determining what you need to address and what you don't. I use something called the ARIA test, and I don't know if you've heard of this, but it is a test that is done on the tears and you just put a little litmus paper in your eye and it goes off to the company and they look for the S100A8 and A9 proteins, and these are proteins that are directly associated with inflammation in the breast, interestingly enough. So they are seen as a precursor or in the very early stages of breast cancer. And so if you have a positive ARIA test, then I have people get imaging. So perfection.

Speaker 2: 42:17

Imaging uses the QT scanner and this uses sound wave technology transmitted through a water bath that collects 200,000 times more data points than MRI and creates a true 3D reconstruction of the breast without pain, without compression or without radiation. So it is 100% safe. We're not hurting anyone and though we can see calcifications, though we can see these small lesions, we're not calling them because I don't want to call them, because it is important to me that we not alarm people for no reason. So if I see a mass in the breast and it has benign properties. Then I'm going to tell someone to come back in six months. We'll re-image her, we'll measure a volume, because this does have volumetric capabilities and we can determine a doubling time. And we know that things that are not meaningful have a doubling time of greater than 100 days and things that are meaningful have a faster doubling time.

Speaker 2: 43:34

But even then, you know I want to keep my initials behind my name, so I do have to be careful, but that I am still saying to people this is nothing more than opportunity. You have the opportunity of knowing that your body is trying to tell you something. So what are we to learn from this message? What are we to hear from this message? Right, and then we can get to work to figure out. How do we need to course correct for you? What is changing here? What do you have that you don't need? What do you need that you don't have?

Speaker 1: 44:19

Perfect, perfect, yeah, because the question is if you're going to screen something, if you're going to screen yourself in it for any, any, uh, any part of your body, what are you going to do If you find something? That's, that's what you got to know and that's why, if you go, if you go into the system is if they, if they find something before you have a chance to even assimilate it, your schedule that's exactly right by design and on purpose.

Speaker 2: 44:53

That is the intention of the system Get them locked in before they think twice.

Speaker 1: 44:59

Exactly Right. And I'll tell you something I have, I don't know, I'm sure you probably have. Probably the most horrifying surgeries are head and neck surgeries and gruesome I and I can't. They don't. If they could show you a picture of what you're going to look like and the fact that you won't be able to eat.

Speaker 1: 45:22

And if they let you, if you know, what you touched on earlier was informed consent. If you're not capable of thinking, then how that wasn't informed consent and that should be, I mean we should have lawyers in there to say you that wasn't informed consent. Informed consent means I understand what's happening, I've weighed the risks and benefits and I've decided to do this Right. But if you haven't been told, if you've been scared you haven't been, so these I had they make it makes me cry when I you know I've, I've seen people get surgery. So you know, so I have you know, so I get, really I get in trouble, I get kicked off of stuff because I can't, I can't keep it back anymore. You know, it's to me.

Speaker 1: 46:02

In fact, tiktok knocked me off the air one day when I used the word what did I use, the word oh, what's it called? When you? Anyway, they didn't, they didn't like it. I can't, I can't be honest. So I'm going to go on X, so I can be honest, but anyway it's. And I'm sure, dr Jen, you've had the same thing. You're like you said, you, you can't believe people do that. But I can't believe these doctors who know they're not going to help people, they know they're going to die.

Speaker 2: 46:37

Yeah, I don't know if they do, in that I don't think that they're conscious anymore. I think that they have been on autopilot since they were trained and they're doing a lot of things because it's how it was done and it was how it's always been done and how it was taught to me and I don't know that they are thinking and most people don't. Most people don't have the opportunity in their career to take off the blinders, don't have the reason or the motivation or the impetus to look outside and think about what they're doing and why. Like, I know that I can tell you I never really asked for the data on mammograms, right, like here, I am trained as a surgeon and a breast surgeon and a fellowship in breast disease and never did I ask do mammograms save lives? Because I mean, after all, there was a big ad campaign, right?

Speaker 2: 47:58

Mammograms save lives. That's what everyone thinks, that's what everyone is told and we accepted it. Right. But there's no data. There's no data that says that. And there's certainly no data to say that mammograms save lives in women younger than 60. And yet, who are we targeting?

Speaker 2: 48:22

We're targeting 40-year-olds and why, Well, we have to get our patients somewhere, we have to get our customers somewhere. And then, so you know, I can't help myself Like I, I cannot help myself, I can't stay away from it. My, my, my PR team tells me again and again and again just stop, just stop, you don't need to do it, it's not necessary, you have a following, you don't need to stir the pot. And I can't help myself. And nearly every day I hear some moron sorry to be so denigrating, but I hear some moron say denigrating.

Speaker 2: 49:11

But I hear some morons say, well, you wouldn't tell someone to not take a cross-country flight, so it's the same amount of radiation, mammograms are safe. And I'm like, oh my God, this is the logic, and these are not uneducated people, these are radiologists saying this that it's the same amount of radiation as a cross-country flight. And you wouldn't tell someone not to fly, so you shouldn't tell someone not to get a mammogram. It's as safe as flying. Really, really, you can't appreciate the difference between the scattered radiation that you get during a cross-country flight and the focused cone down radiation you get to the compressed, traumatized tissues of the breast during a mammogram it's madness, and we just, we blindly trust you know, I, I told the rate uh, they wouldn't let me order an ultrasound Cause I said I don't want to do, uh, I'm not gonna do it.

Speaker 1: 50:14

And the radiologist said to me uh, no, no, we don't, we, you can't, you can't order the ultrasound until we've done the mammogram. I said I'll tell you what you uh, take your testicles, squash them and irradiate them, and then I'll send all my patients to you. And he hung up on me, because it's a and I so I'm sure that men came up with the idea of a mammogram. It wasn't a woman's idea, because it's a squash.

Speaker 2: 50:35

Certainly not.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Yeah, it's inflamed and now you're going to irradiate it. Okay, you want to get cancer? Here's the way to get cancer.

Speaker 2: 50:49

That's exactly it. This is the perfect recipe, right? It's how to create the customer, how to create the customer, and then they have everyone believing that it's for the good. I know, which is so astounding to me, like, thank God, I had my mammogram, it saved my life. I know, which is so astounding to me, like, thank God, I had my mammogram, it saved my life. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And I don't want to. I don't want to kind of make a mockery of that because, thank God, people are alive. But you know, it's so hard to get them to see that probably they would have never, ever, ever been diagnosed with breast cancer. Right, they would have never had a reason to think that their life was saved. Right, like it's. Like it's like they're giving people the disease and then taking credit for saving them. It is so crazy, right, right, it's so crazy to me.

Speaker 2: 51:53

Right and yet no one sees it.

Speaker 1: 51:57

They don't see it. And even if you show it to them, they don't see it, so they're hypnotic. You know, I had a lady with wildly disseminated non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a single mom, a lady with wildly disseminated non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a single mom, and she went to her oncologist and he very kindly, very good bedside manner, told her that her daughter is going to be an orphan. Isn't that sweet, I mean so anyway. So she came to me, we worked with her about six months later, clean, she went and showed him the scan and she said you want to know what I did? And he said, no, okay, so that so even when they're giving there, he had the opportunity, but he knew he doesn't want to know, that he doesn't want to, you know? And? And that when I heard that, I realized, by the way, she just contacted me. It's been 15 years, 16 years.

Speaker 2: 52:46

Wow.

Speaker 1: 52:47

Yeah, and it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 52:56

Do you know Kelly Turner? Have you ever met her? She wrote two books Radical Remission and Radical Hope. She's a PhD and I don't really remember how it started, but she wanted to write a book about those radical remissions, those people who were told by their medical oncologists that you know, go make your arrangements right, like, tie up your loose ends and then these people are alive 5, 10, 15, 20 years later. So she wanted to know what are the common threads, what's going on here, what's happening with these people that is not happening with everyone else in the medical oncologist's office.

Speaker 2: 53:43

And at one point she went back to the medical office, the medical oncologist where she had started, and you know he said you're not going to find any of these stories. And she said to him you know, do you want to hear about what people are doing? Do you want to hear about the stories? And he said no, what people are doing? What you want, do you want to hear about the stories? And he said no. He said, and I also don't want you telling them, because I don't want you getting these people's hopes up, because these people are not going to live.

Speaker 2: 54:18

And it's very true that if all you do is cut and burn and drug. You are not going to live Right. That's very true and that's all he can see and he cannot see past that. And so you know, when you talk about the head and neck surgeons and not giving informed consent, and not creating a real picture, and doing this despite the fact that they know that the outcome is going to be horrible, they can't see that, they're blind to that. And even if they could, they don't want to.

Speaker 1: 54:59

Yeah, and there's something I've realized that it's very sad, but it's how you define the word mercenary. When we graduate medical school, we have to take something called the Hippocratic Oath. I took Hippocratic Oath and I know you did too not to do any harm to your patients. Most of the doctors I'm running into have taken the Hippocratic Oath not to do any harm to their careers and sadly, that comes before you, and so so you know it. My moment when I realized I was going to change, I realized it was like in one moment I said I, I can no longer ethically practice conventional medicine and I just I, I couldn't. But once I knew it, it was, it was over, it didn't take me about three months to close everything down, but I just couldn't do it. Once you know you can't do it anymore. So, and that's the thing. But I think you have to be caught up in this. You have to be in a spell or whatever it is, when they tell you you have two weeks to live, eight months to live. How?

Speaker 1: 56:08

do they know.

Speaker 2: 56:09

How do they know? They don't know.

Speaker 1: 56:11

They don't know how long they're going to live. They can't tell you how long you're going to live.

Speaker 2: 56:14

But the problem is, when they start to use those words, people believe them. And the number one predictor of how long you're going to live is how long you think you're going to live. How long you're going to live is how long you think you're going to live. I remember I had this woman and she had had metastatic disease I'm not kidding for like 10 years, 12 years, something like that. And she kept saying to me all I want is to see my daughter graduate from high school, and I would tell her time and time. Please don't say that to me, please. I don't want you to put a cap on it. I don't want you to give me your final date, like just tell me you want to live as long as possible, but when you put a cap on it, there's a cap on it. And do you know that her daughter graduated high school on Friday and she died on Sunday? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 57:11

That's the power of the mind.

Speaker 2: 57:13

It's just so crazy. It's the power of the mind. It's the power of the mind.

Speaker 1: 57:19

And the mind is made up of words and pictures, so you have got to have the greatest respect for it. And don't you know, when we talk about sorcer, sorcery, what they do in the hospitals is sorcery. They put a spell on you, abracadabra. And when, in the moment, they say that you're done, and that's why I, you know, I mean, you know, I'm like completely around. I don't ever go there, you know, ever, ever, there's never. You know, you broke your leg. Baby's coming out feet first Okay, stuff like that. Yeah, there are times to go there.

Speaker 2: 57:50

Oh, I think there's a time and a place. Listen, if you have a ruptured appendicitis, I don't want you to put a stick in your mouth and, you know, bear down on your teeth at home, like that's. That's not going to work and there there is a time and a place, right? So, appendicitis, you should go to the hospital. You break your hip? You should go to the hospital. Even if you're having chest pain, you should go to the hospital. We can intervene here in a really meaningful and positive way.

Speaker 2: 58:21

However, most of the diseases that we deal with are chronic diseases brought on by diet and lifestyle, and when you go to the hospital with these diseases, they only make them worse. They only make them worse. So they give you a drug which necessitates another drug, which necessitates another drug, which necessitates another drug which necessitates another drug. And you get into this whole polypharmacy thing. And this is where you know. When you said that study that came out that said the medical system is the number three cause of death, it probably you know they're talking about accidental overdose or polypharmacy or things like that. But that's another system that's totally blind to what they're doing or there's some evil genius at the top going like this. But I unfortunately think there's a lot of pawns in the system. I think doctors get caught up in it.

Speaker 2: 59:30

I also think that it's really, really hard to step away from what you've been doing, especially when it's the only thing you know. Or you're the provider for your family. I mean, listen, I started a new career at 50. Were the provider for your family? I mean, listen, I started a new career at 50 and thank God that I have an extremely supportive husband and and my family well, they tolerate me.

Speaker 2: 59:58

But you know this, this was a really, really, really hard decision for me and it's still. You know, I could have continued to did what I was doing and I could have continued to be a surgeon and have a very, very comfortable life. It would have required me turning off my brain to everything that I learned, everything that I knew to be true, right. But you, you need to know that most people don't have that insight because they haven't had the opportunity to see it any other way and they don't know any better. They don't know and, and most of them would honestly say, and most of them would honestly say, like, when we talk about mammograms, most radiologists honestly say what's wrong with a mammogram?

Speaker 1: 1:00:53

I know, I know.

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

They're dead serious. What's wrong with a mammogram? Most doctors honestly say what's wrong with a mammogram it's very little radiation.

Speaker 1: 1:01:09

That's what they say. Yeah, well, and you can't. You know and actually when they ask that question you, you should know it at that moment that there's no matter what you say, it won't matter. So the end of discussion. They won't hear it. It's like they're speaking Czechoslovakian and you're speaking, you know, russian, or whatever. Yes, you're not going to communicate, so don't even try.

Speaker 2: 1:01:30

Yeah, I would have gone with Japanese there.

Speaker 1: 1:01:33

Or Japanese. Ok, so you know, and that's it. And language is very, very important. So you talk about the word cancer? See, I don't, and I'm sure you've heard that I say this. You talk about the word cancer? See, I don't, and I'm sure you've heard that I say this. But to me, if you try to look up the definition of cancer right, because words are supposed to communicate, Like I have the word cup, I gave you information.

Speaker 1: 1:01:57

Now, if I use the word cancer, all I know is that somebody born between June 21st and July 22nd, that's it. There's no other thing. Why didn't we call it sagittarius? Let's call it leo, because it and I promise you, if we opened you up, we would not find an astrological sign. So there, this is astrology. It conveys no, but it does conveys emotion, and it says you're going to die.

Speaker 1: 1:02:19

It just stole your future, it made your agendas irrelevant. That is what it did. So let's use what it is. They're chronically fermenting cells. They adapted and now they can ferment. So I call them CFCs, and when you hear the words, when you hear the acronym CFC or you hear chronic, it doesn't hurt, but it gives you information. And then you say, oh, that's what's happening. They're fermenting because, oh, so now you can figure out why it happened and you develop a strategy and you can actually oh, okay, but the other way you hear cancer it'd be cancer. It's just a. It's just a. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a, it's a nightmare. It's a. There's no information. So that's why I don't use the word. And I hear, I tell people. Don't let anybody say you tell people when you're talking to them, don't ever use that word. And I always say when were they born? I find out what their astrological sign is. I said, oh, you're Leo. So if anybody ever says, how's your cancer, Say what are you talking about? I'm Leo.

Speaker 2: 1:03:12

I love that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:12

Yeah, but forget that word. Please forget that word. It'll kill you. It's a stab in the heart. It's a stab in the heart, I know.

Speaker 2: 1:03:22

I know Because it notion of what it means. And if all you do is follow the conventional paradigm, it does mean that, right. And what we need to do in a universal way is change how we approach it, change how we diagnose it, right, because we should be diagnosing it far, far less than we do, and I hear you that we shouldn't be diagnosing it at all. I hear that. I think, at this point in the game, it's a pretty unrealistic expectation that we're gonna change the world, although I would love to, but we need to stop looking so hard for it, right, like there's no benefit to doing that. And that's not exclusive to the breast. It's true of the prostate as well. We started to look so hard for prostate, right, that we created a whole population of people that didn't need to be a part of that club. They didn't, and it doesn't serve them in any way. Shape or form Same with the thyroid Doesn't serve in any way. Shape or form to be doing all to be looking so hard for this. And the same is true with blood pressure, right.

Speaker 2: 1:04:54

We keep lowering the number at which we're going to treat. So now we put people on medication and what happens? They have syncopal episodes because we've made them hypotensive right, and now they have a head injury because they were treated for something that they need to be treated for and for as long as we continue to lower the thresholds, right. So now we decided that we're going to lower the threshold again to treat cholesterol right. Like cholesterol is somehow an issue. And why isn't anyone saying wait, what is wrong with elevated cholesterol? What does it really mean? No one's saying that. They're saying okay, I guess I'll take the statin, because they told me to take the statin. And then what happens? They're depressed, they're anxious, they, uh, they. You have a 63% increase in diabetes. 63% increase in diabetes for something that was not changing your risk of having a cardiovascular event. That's the amazing part to me, right? Is it's just all take away this, take away this, take away this without without giving anyone a better outcome.

Speaker 1: 1:06:18

Well, the studies for the statins don't look at do I live longer, do I have a more healthy life? They just look did it lower cholesterol? Yeah, it did right. Okay. Well, what is you know what? 70 of our white matter is cholesterol. So we're seeing, we see in our brain in our brain.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

So we're seeing alzheimer's. We're seeing what we call alzheimer's because we're we're on statins, we're not making cholesterol. You need cholesterol, believe me, you don't need anybody else's cholesterol. So I always thought if, okay, your cholesterol is high and you're worried about it, the only thing that I think about is what the and what they don't measure is do you have an oxidized LDL? If you do, then you're in trouble. But if you're oxidizing that, you're oxidizing everything, which means you know. So that's right.

Speaker 2: 1:07:03

It's a systemic thing? It's not. But it's not your cholesterol, exactly Right. It's the inflammatory process that's happening in your body and we have a number of ways to measure that. We don't have to measure it in cholesterol, and, incidentally, lowering cholesterol doesn't change that oxidative stress, right? So that's still happening whether or not you're on a lipid lowering agent.

Speaker 1: 1:07:29

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 1:07:32

And it is so amazing to me that most of the people that are prescribing these medications are not aware of this. They're not.

Speaker 1: 1:07:42

They're not, they're not. You know, I remember when I was conventional and I'd have a pharmaceutical rep come in right and they would do their thing and I would, I would do, I didn't, I didn't. They showed me their research, which they paid for, and I didn't even think about that. I just, oh, okay, they gave me samples, I started to use it and I realized, you know, later, when I, when I, when I left that world, I realized how it works, that's what they do, right, and it's. The whole thing is insane. Um, I didn't question anything. I realized I didn't do that because I was sold on the fact that someone's sick. You got to poison them, I, but I didn't realize it was poison. But they imagine your child comes to you and says mommy, I don't feel good, here's some poison honey. You know no.

Speaker 2: 1:08:28

Well, but I say that all the time, because when people are like, well, you know what's one mammogram? First of all, no one gets one mammogram right. Like, if a woman starts at 40 and she ends at 70 or 80, that's 30 or 40 mammograms. And that's if she only has once a year, which no one does Right 30 or 40 mammograms. And that's if she only has once a year which no one does Right Over a lifetime. Because if you screen a woman for 10 years, 50% of them will get called back Right, so it's not one mammogram a year.

Speaker 2: 1:08:58

But, um, you know, and if you're using that reasoning, right, what's one mammogram? Well, what's one dose of arsenic? Would you take one dose of arsenic? Right, like, it's just a little poison. What's the big deal? How about if I gave you a little bit every year? Are you down with that? Right? Are you game? Yes, and they gave you a little bit every year. Are you down with that? Right? Are you game? Yes, right, it's just a little bit of poison and I can't. I think it's just hard for mainstream medicine to see it. They're so blinded by what they've been doing and it's so ingrained in them that they just can't see outside of it and also, inherently, people fear change.

Speaker 2: 1:09:53

I think that that is a very big part of things is that we still all have the tribe mentality. It's it's genetically ingrained in us that if you step outside of the, out of the safety of the tribe, you're going to get killed. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:10:10

You know so.

Speaker 2: 1:10:11

I I think that that that exists as well, that even if sometimes I'm having a conversation with someone and I feel them starting to soften and them starting to hear me, and then something snaps and they go right back in.

Speaker 1: 1:10:29

And that's, yeah, that's what it is. I was talking to a patient the other day, a woman who had who's. You know many, many years since she first got a spell put on her called the diagnosis, before she had the sorcerers put a spell on her. Um, uh, she's been doing well. So she had a friend who's had got the same problem and she was telling her. And she goes, what did you do? And she says, well, let me tell you what I did. And the woman's and, and she says, what did your doctor say? Tell you? He said I'm not going to that, I'm going to die, but I, okay. So here.

Speaker 1: 1:11:06

So, even though here's a woman that says here, I didn't die, he tells you you're going to die and, instead of doing this, you're going to still stay there. Do you realize how powerful that is? You're going to do something that you know has a fatal outcome instead of trying something else. And that's what fear does. Fear makes you, uh, uh, makes you agree to do things that you, even though you know they're the, the, they're not going to be good for you. You'll look, because you're listening to authority. Fear actually does that. We know that. So, yeah, standard of scare, you know. The thing is, the doctors should be saying if you do what I say, you'll be dead in six months, because they don't know. Believe me, listen, and everyone has to hear this. They don't know what happens to the people that say I'm out of here. They have no data on them, so how can they tell you what?

Speaker 2: 1:11:57

happens to them Well, that's what Kelly Turner found with her book is that when she went back to the medical oncologist he said well, you know, I don't know that she's alive, I don't know what she did. She never came back for treatment, right? So well, it doesn't mean she died. You assume she died. She lived because she didn't come back for treatment, right? And I think that this is something that is just really uncomfortable for practitioners, for people.

Speaker 2: 1:12:36

And I remember I was giving a talk and it was to a group of women who all had metastatic breast cancer, and I noticed about halfway through like some eye rolling, and I knew that only about half of the room was really hearing me. And afterwards I stayed for questions and this woman put her hand up and she said questions. And this woman put her hand up and she said you know, I don't know if what you're saying is true or not. All I know is that for me, if it doesn't work, I want to be able to blame the drug. I don't want to have to take responsibility. And I do think that there is a part of that that is true for people, that it's easier to blame the drug than to say I have any power, and we are not trained to believe that we have any power over our health. We're not the opposite.

Speaker 1: 1:13:44

Well, that's why the genetic thing yeah, we're not the opposite. Well, that's why the genetic thing yeah. If they tell you it's genetics, what can I do? Yeah, oh, it's genetics. Well then I might as well smoke, crack and cigarettes, right, because it doesn't matter, right, oh no, but that's-.

Speaker 2: 1:14:04

All caution to the wind right right just go for it.

Speaker 1: 1:14:08

Oh, five percent five percent maybe of conditions are genetic and you never see those. They're in, they're in institutions, they don't get out because they can't take care of themselves. But if you made it this far, you've got good genes. So you know, you're here, you've got good genes and that that's what we need to know. So, uh, and you know, like a breast cancer gene, would God give us a breast cancer gene? What for entertainment? Or, let's say, you're completely into what's his name? Who's the guy that promoted evolution?

Speaker 1: 1:14:40

Darwin, yeah, yeah, suppose you're completely into Darwin. What's the central part of it? Natural selection, survival of the fittest. So if we did have a cancer gene, it would have been gone a long time ago because it doesn't work. So, either way you look at it, it couldn't be. Plus, 0.07% of the people died from cancer in the year 1910. And now what? We're almost getting close to 50%, 40%. So how could that be genetic? We would all have to have at least one parent and one grandparent.

Speaker 2: 1:15:11

Well, no, of course not. And even when you look at the BRCA gene, I mean, now there's an 80 some percent incidence of breast cancer associated with that, but 50 years ago it was like 20%. So you know, and our genes have not changed over the last 50 years. Right, it's not your genes. And as far as the BRCA gene goes, there had to have been something that was protective about it, because there has to be a reason why it still exists today. Right, it had to have been something that was protective about it, because there has to be a reason why it still exists today. Right, it had to have conferred some kind of protection somehow.

Speaker 1: 1:15:54

So I think.

Speaker 2: 1:15:56

I think it's just it's a lot of, it's a lot of learned ignorance and helplessness and and it's there very intentionally again, and I think it starts very early on in the process, certainly in the medical school process, with don't ask questions, here's the facts, here's the curriculum, memorize it and don't question it, because you know all the work's been done for it, and don't question it.

Speaker 1: 1:16:29

Because you know all the work's been done for you. You don't have to question it Right, and critical minds are not rewarded? Oh, no, so, and you know, I wanted to ask you what you do because you have?

Speaker 2: 1:16:44

you have like a. Is it like an eight week course? I have a 10 week course where I I ask people to be provocative about where they think this diagnosis is coming from. And what do you? What are you meant to learn here? What, what message are you meant to receive? And, of course, I help people with how they eat and how they think and how they move and their environment, but mostly I'm helping them to think about what is interfering with them having their best health, because I do think that these are our messages and unless we take some time and pause and do some critical thinking around them, nothing is gonna change. It takes change to change and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So you know, this is a safe space and an opportunity for people to examine.

Speaker 2: 1:17:54

Now do I look at genetics with people? Yeah, I do, because I think that there are ways to eat to support your genetics. I think that there are some people that need supplementation that they're unaware of. For instance, for me, if you're plant-based and you're not able to take beta carotene and turn it to the active form of vitamin A, which is retinoic acid. If you're not eating animals and you are not able to do that reaction in your body, then you're going to get into trouble along the way with immune system and things like that. So I think that there are some things that it's important to know about yourself so that you can nurture your nature.

Speaker 2: 1:18:44

I know for years I would try to keep up with my husband. He loves to spin, he loves the spin bike, and I would get up at 5.30 in the morning and we would go to the spin studio and we would do this HIIT workout on the bike. And I would come home, take a shower, go to work and by 10 o'clock I was asleep at my desk. And what I learned when I tested my DNA is I don't have good detoxification genes. So if I do those heavy duty, intense workouts, I create a bunch of exhaust that my body needs to detoxify and I didn't have a rapid detoxification system. So here I am at work and my body's telling me hey, I need you to go to sleep because I need to process this, I need to take care of what just happened here. And it took me years to make that connection and I think I didn't make that connection until I did my own nutrigenomic testing. So you know I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Speaker 2: 1:19:53

I do believe that there are many facets of conventional medicine where we can take advantage of them and really create our own individual paradigm that promotes our health in the best way. And I do believe that there is a lot of knowledge and power available to us when we know where to look and what to do. On the flip side, these people that come to me and they're like here I had genetic testing and they hand me a list of like 150 totally inactionable genes, right, like, oh, they gave me my genetic testing and it's like for BRCA and BARD and CHECK2 and all of these things. And all of these things are part of that same scare paradigm that you were talking about in these scare tactics. And I say to them what did your doctor tell you to do about this? And they were like nothing. And I said do you want to know what I think you should do with it? And they say yeah, and I say walk five feet and throw that shit in the trash. It's not of any value to you.

Speaker 2: 1:21:10

So again, I do think that there are things that we can use. There are tools that we can use to optimize our health and, after all, that's what it's all about. And also, health is a journey and you have different needs at different times in your life and we need to be insightful and respect that. But mostly we need to be in touch with ourselves and we have so much more power than we think, so much more power than we've been led to believe, and we need to step into that power, step into our intuition, and know and love your body and know that disease is a construct, like all this garbage that people are talking about, that gender is a construct. Disease is a construct. It was meant to lure you into a system that does not benefit you in any way, shape or or form, and it's meant to make the machine run. But if you don't want to be part of the medical machine, don't be part of it. There's no benefit to you in being part of it.

Speaker 1: 1:22:16

No, no, the whole disease model came around from Rockefeller. It morphed from the germ theory and it's implying there's a thing out there called diabetes and it's going to get into you and you got to get rid of it. That's not even anywhere near the truth. If I'm eating too much pasta, bread, potato, rice and cake, I got glucose. My body's going to reflexively, adaptively, become insulin resistant. So what I have to do is not make that adaptation necessary. Easy. It's an easy, easy understanding. So don't go for the disease model.

Speaker 1: 1:22:53

You know I wanted to mention something about you talking about the genes. We all know that if you've been getting intravenous vitamin C, you know your doctor asked for what's called the G6PD first, g6, g6pd, right, and because that is it. In other words, it's what the red blood cells have and they it's what they rely on to, to, to, to protect themselves from oxidation. So if you have a deficiency and people, people know it because they can't eat certain legumes and stuff like fava beans and stuff. So I had a woman come in. She had breast CFCs, or let's call it breast, what's it? Sagittarius?

Speaker 2: 1:23:31

Whatever, we all know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 1:23:32

Yeah, Sagittarius on her breast.

Speaker 2: 1:23:35

Don't use Sagittarius, that's my son.

Speaker 1: 1:23:37

Oh, okay, okay, Leo, she had a Leo breast, it's my husband, it's more appropriate.

Speaker 1: 1:23:44

No, he's a TARS. So so she had that and she had. She had known G6PD. She goes you don't have to test me, I'm a. And so we did test her. I think she was a three or something, really, really low, and she couldn't eat this, she couldn't eat that. And I couldn't imagine helping someone with breast CFCs and not use vitamin C. I just couldn't imagine. So I okay, I'm gonna give you a lower amount.

Speaker 1: 1:24:03

So I gave her 15 grams and I was doing it like three or four times a week and I kept checking her her, um, her half the globe, and I wanted to make sure she wasn't hemolyzing and it everything was fine. And I did it, I guess I don't know how long. And then I said well, no problem, let's go up to 20. Uh, 25. And then I said you know what? And I'd be shooting on 25 for why, said you know what? And I'd been shipping on 25 for a while. I said you know, I'm going to check that G6PD again, see what's going on. It was 15. And I mentioned that at a lecture with Dr Frank Schallenberger had put on his ozone and he said you know, I had the same thing happen with ozone, because you're not supposed to give ozone either. So, in other words, what we did was we challenged it in the body upregulated it.

Speaker 2: 1:24:54

In other words, adaptation.

Speaker 1: 1:24:55

Yeah, and we, and we have that capability If you just you can't, if she, if we would have given her 50 grams, she would have been in trouble. We just so we have to respect that as well. Now there's one other thing I gotta tell you this, and and I I have a hard time with it there's a guy that made it, came up with the thing called cocoon water. Have you heard that? K-a-q-u-n no hungarian.

Speaker 1: 1:25:19

I'll send you the. I'll send you the did. He did his phd dissertation on it. All that it'son water, and what it does is it takes the water molecule, he's got some sort of electrical thing underneath the tub and it turns it into exotic oxygens like 10, 12 oxygen atoms. They go right into cells and I think what happened? And I've seen tumors disappear. Somebody grew back half of their finger. I mean it's crazy. And I said I told him. I told him. I said I think what's happening is it's getting in there, it's changing the tumor microenvironment so the immune system's no longer suppressed. And he said no, here's what he told me. And I said, if this is true, you're going to get a nobel prize. You have to understand that. Uh. So he said what?

Speaker 2: 1:25:59

happened. Well, if they don't, if they don't kill him, right he which they might.

Speaker 1: 1:26:04

Yeah, he's Hungarian, but they found out. What he says is that, look, he took guinea pigs Because guinea pigs have the same problem as us they can't make a scorpate Right Vitamin C. They can't make it because they lack an enzyme. Go away, okay. So God. So anyway, he gave guinea pigs this water and guinea pigs regular water and he started checking the ascorbates in their urine. It was really high. So he does it with people too. He says when they first come in, he measures their HIF1 alpha and he measures their ascorbate, and usually HIF1 alpha is like thisorbates here, but the time they leave is the opposite. So he says that he's activating. We actually do have l-galunolactone oxidase and it gets activated.

Speaker 1: 1:26:53

I said, whoa, I mean. So if that's true, do you realize that what that would mean? So whatever his water is, whatever that off that water. I don't think that's what it is. I can't, possibly. I just don't want to believe that. See how rigid I am. I don't want to believe that. I don't want to believe that. But who knows, you know, maybe it's true, but wouldn't that be interesting? So Wouldn't?

Speaker 1: 1:27:18

that be amazing, wouldn't that be amazing? I'm going to send you the data and stuff. But the tub is amazing. His daughter had pancreatic CFCs. Six months no pancreas. She had a five-centimeter lesion.

Speaker 2: 1:27:32

Okay, you need to share this resource with me, Okay all right, I will.

Speaker 2: 1:27:39

You're going to want to have a couple baths in your clinic. Well, so I don't have in person. I mean, what I'm doing at Perfection Imaging is just screening. I don't treat people in person, I have 100% virtual practice. But I need to know about these resources because so many people come to me as like a last resort and of course I want to help them. I want to help them, but they've been so conditioned by the conventional system and oftentimes they come to me after they're so beat up by the conventional system, right. So they come to me and they have white counts in the ones and they've been on these horrible, horrible drugs for years. And now they're progressing through the drugs and they want to know what miracles I have to offer. And sometimes we can stabilize these people and start to reverse the process. But it's so much harder when they've been so damaged for so long.

Speaker 1: 1:28:53

And it's just, it's a tragedy. That's why I'm so, I get so. So I think you and I have come to the same conclusion, because what you're doing basically in that eight weeks, 10 weeks, is you're helping them become re-educated, you're trying to get them to clear away the false stuff, examine themselves, because we all know the answer. I mean, there's not a cigarette smoker on the planet that doesn't know they probably shouldn't smoke, or an alcoholic who doesn't know they shouldn't. You know, we know.

Speaker 2: 1:29:32

Yeah, but I've been fired by those people. I remember, I so distinctly remember this woman who, you know, begged me, begged me, begged me to take her on and we do a history. And at the end of my first meeting with people, I say to them hey, listen, not for nothing. But I think that these are the things that you need to think about. She was a nutritionist, kind of a celebrity nutritionist. She was drinking a bottle of wine a day, a bottle of wine a day. And I said to her you know, you need to consider that wine is a toxin. No, wine's good for you, it's red wine. I'm like, no, that is a story that you've been told and a justification that's been put out there, but a bottle of wine is not good for you. And she called my, she called my office manager the next day and fired me because she said that I blamed her for her cancer.

Speaker 1: 1:30:38

Right, exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:30:40

Right, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:30:44

And they they get angry. They'll get angry at you if you challenge that.

Speaker 2: 1:30:49

Yeah, and it's easier to be mad at me. Right, it's my fault. It's a lot easier to be mad at me than to look inside and say I mean even having the conversation with yourself, why are you drinking that much? What are you trying to cover up? What are you trying to suppress? What are you trying to numb Right? Because if you're drinking that much or smoking that much or taking that many pills, like I'm not picking on drinkers, but if you're doing any, of those things every day.

Speaker 2: 1:31:27

What are you afraid to feel? Right, because if you're afraid to feel it and you're just suppressing it with substances, guess what's going to happen? You're going to have a manifestation of whatever it is, because you were meant to feel that for some reason and you can't suppress it, you can't run away reason, and you can't suppress it, you can't run away from it, you can't hide it. You're meant to feel that for a reason, it has a purpose, it has a message Yep, yep, we are an aspect of nature.

Speaker 1: 1:32:00

I don't know. 19th century, we had essays man against nature, that's like my thumb being against my hand. You know, we are in nature. You can't so anyway, and we're. And the thing about nature, natural laws, they're non-negotiable. You know, you cannot plant the tomato seed and negotiate a cucumber. That, or you can't, and that's we have to real, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:32:22

Another thing I wanted to touch on this before we go, because it's getting layout. Yeah, it's like um, is that? Uh, you came to that realization and I did too. There comes a point with someone and you have to realize and it may be their destiny, the will of god, karma, however you want to, whatever name you're going to put on it that they, they got to go this way and then respect it, because it's like my mother said to me.

Speaker 1: 1:32:50

My mother had a myelodysplastic syndrome and she was in her sleep. You know, she was in trouble and she am, of course, she heard me talk before I could talk, but she, she looked at me one day and she goes. I know what I should do, but I just can't. I you know, and so you know she goes. I'm going to, you know I said, you know so for her. You know, we're Italian pasta meatballs. Go, I love it, go, enjoy it, you know, and just do what you have. What? Because you have to honor you. If someone is really not going to do it, that's fine. That's their journey and respect it, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:33:27

And where I have a problem is when the person with me, what is all on board with this, and the spouses. So whatever benefit we get during the day when they go home to that spouse, it's going to wipe it out and that's why we have to. You know, cancer, just like pregnancy, the yeah, the woman gets pregnant, a baby, but they both have a baby. The father, he wasn't pregnant, but he still has a baby, right. And so the same thing with cancer, the whole family is affected and therefore the whole family should be involved in your resolution of this problem. And that's why I want the family to come, everybody come, because if you have a dramatic change in your life and they don't, what are you gonna? That's like you're an alcoholic. You go back to the bar. You can't sit at the bar too long if you're an alcoholic.

Speaker 1: 1:34:15

So you know, I that or at all or at all right, right, right, so yeah, and we have to all be on board and so, anyway, you are, you're just like a female, me, and and it's interesting, you're, you're, you know, you've kind of obviously, you know you end up focusing on the breast, but we, if you look at it, you'll find out that the same thing is going on in the prostate, the pancreas.

Speaker 2: 1:34:45

There's only one, the only difference is the tissues Location, location, location, but it's the same process, yeah, so Of course, obviously, and yes, I did choose to focus in one area, but that I agree with you of focus in one area, but that I agree with you. And the truth is that breast health is health, and the same things that are going to give you a healthy breast are going to give you a healthy brain and a healthy heart and a healthy gut and a healthy mood and healthy bones and joints. And you know, it's all the same, it's all the same because health is health.

Speaker 2: 1:35:25

We are one system. We are one system and it is the system pulling it apart that has kind of deceived people into thinking that you can separate and fragment and you know this person does this and this person does that. No-transcript, of course not. You know, have I saved every single person who came in my path? No, of course not. Have I saved every single person who came in my path? No, of course not. But I've made a significant impact and made a huge difference for a lot of people and through my book, through my podcast, through my imaging centers, through the work that I'm doing with survivors, I'm changing the lives of millions of people.

Speaker 1: 1:36:46

And it's my privilege to do it. So I was reading that your centers are not just where you live, right? Are they in different states?

Speaker 2: 1:37:00

So I have two now, one in Pennsylvania, one in California and I'm putting up eight on the East Coast this year, so four in New York and New York Metro, four in Florida. We'll put another one or two in California and I'm just going to fill in. After that I'm going to put up 50 of these.

Speaker 1: 1:37:19

Are you, when you put them up in the let's say, you know a center wants to buy it by that Are you teaching them also about the tier first, do you? You, you, okay, good, good you, I. You gotta send me some information on that. I really.

Speaker 2: 1:37:35

I will.

Speaker 1: 1:37:35

I really like that, and then I was just, and then we don't have time today, but I'd like to get your take on the relationship between the mouth and the rest of the body because, by the way, the mouth never left the body. You know, I don't know why we have two professions, but the thyroid and breast are on the same meridian, and that's of course, and they both have they both have, they both need iodine, and so you know there's a lot of stuff, so we can't ignore that either. There's all these other real?

Speaker 2: 1:38:04

no, of course not. There's. There's a very real and true connection. I've interviewed two or three or maybe even four brilliant, brilliant holistic dentists recently. But you know that's another profession where the the education has not caught up at all and you know they're still all drill and fill in the dental schools and no one is talking about holistic health or the role of diet or any of that. They're still talking about fluoride and fluoride treatments, and fluoride is an industrial waste product. It's like oh, where can we put this crap?

Speaker 2: 1:38:51

Oh, we'll put it in toothpaste. I mean, it's horrible.

Speaker 1: 1:38:54

Horrible, and it used to be. Prior to that, it was actually a pesticide, so it's, you know, I don't know it's so insane, but you're right, dentists aren't learning it either. So and so, even even.

Speaker 2: 1:39:08

Well, I'm going to see you next week because you're coming on mine next week. So we can get into all of that, then yeah, let's do that. Next week you get to be the star of the show.

Speaker 1: 1:39:20

Ok, fantastic, listen, I'm so happy you came and did that and I'm so happy you exist, so it's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 1:39:26

I feel right back at you and I can't wait to meet you. I get to meet you in two months, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:39:31

Yeah, in April.

Speaker 2: 1:39:32

So exciting.

Speaker 1: 1:39:33

Yeah, finally.

Speaker 2: 1:39:34

Because, like I feel, like I know you so well and yet we've never like gotten to hug one another.

Speaker 1: 1:39:40

Right, right, so I can't wait.

Speaker 2: 1:39:41

I'm so excited Me too, but you're in charge of finding us a vegan restaurant in Austin, okay, I will do it.

Speaker 1: 1:39:49

Okay, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:39:50

I'm putting you in charge Done, done. Actually, my husband will find it. He's so resourceful, he's amazing. Oh, that's better. But, we will find it. I hope he comes. I hope he's going to come with me. It mostly depends on what's going on on the home front, but hopefully he'll come and you know you'll get to meet him and we and we get to spend some good time together.

Speaker 1: 1:40:14

I'd love that. Ok, fantastic, amazing, thank you. Thank you, my pleasure, so great to be with you. And there we go.